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Mommi-fied? Or Mummified?
Looks fake to me. At best, it’s a 1000 year old statue. No way it’s an actual body. I’d wager that it was made within the last 10 years and the C14 results were forged.
I think there’s a dual purpose to this: First, to soften people to the idea of aliens as humanity’s savior when tens of millions of people disappear; and second, to make the people who push “conspiracy theories” look foolish. This one is an obvious fake, so don’t fall for it. By falling for it, you’ll be discredited in the eyes of people who actually are looking for truth. It’s fine to have suspicions, but we need to only push that which we can prove. If we can’t prove it, then we need to investigate it to discover if it’s real, psyop, or just fan fiction.
Carbon dating is bunk.
It can be useful, but for the most part, it’s abused in order to manufacture historical narratives. Beyond 1-2000 years, it’s basically useless.
By saying, “when tens of millions of people disappear,” you’re referring to a “pre-trib rapture,” correct? If so, can I ask you some questions about this belief?
I am, and yes.
I’m not trying to assume that you agree or disagree with what other people teach about pre-trib, but I do have a few questions on specific things that I’ve seen taught in the pre-trib camp.
Jesus is a living person. New Jerusalem is a city, a location, a throne
Spiritual marriage is the oneness of spirit with the Three parties the groom, the bride, The Holy Spirit. Marriage is a covenant that is designed by God and confirmed by God, as the joining of two individuals becoming one in spirit with The Lord. Metaphor was used very often by a jesus, comparing the body to a house. A house was swept clean and nothing was placed inside and even more evil came and inhabited the house. The wheat and tares, sheep and goats, humans are the cattle of God’s fields, a light on a hill to signify the truth of the gospel, etc. Revelation reads, New Jerusalem is prepared like a bride for her groom. A virgin bride, never corrupted, perfectly pure, beautiful to look upon , never given to any other. Exactly as an ideal picture of a bride should be. But to think that Jesus’s bride is an inanimate structure or structures, is completely missing the picture of the purity of The Throne of The Lord. Yes, prepared as a bride, but never did Jesus once infer that, this city will be my bride. How can a city enter into a wedding feast, how can a city be dressed in white garments, how can a city return the love of a bride towards her betrothed. I looked and behold a great number in white robes and I asked, who are these in white robes. And the angel replied, these are those that have come out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. Then you follow that by John witnessing the angels about to pour out judgement on the earth. If they’ve already been drawn to heaven, before the angels begin to pour out the vials of the wrath of God, how is that not a pre tribulation rapture ? Not all ” Christians” will be caught up. The wise that have trusted the promise of the bridegroom, and prepared themselves and been filled with The Holy Spirit, the oil in their lamps, another metaphor, these will be caught up. Those that lack faith, those that never truly knew The Lord, those that chose to believe the lies of the enemy, will be tried by fire. They will be tested and purified or they will fail to hold fast and allow fear to consume them and take the mark just to survive. The tribulation has nothing to do with the bride of Christ. The tribulation is The Time of Jacobs Trouble. The purification of Israel. One third will be purified and preserved for The Lord. God blinded the eyes of the Israelites, because their hearts were hard and to allow God to show mercy to the gentiles. I will provoke them to jealousy with a people that are no people. They were the lamp on the hill a peculiar people, a nation set apart with God as their King. They refused that role. The church became an intermediary lamp stand, but God by no means rejected Israel as a whole. We were that nation founded by God, a people that were no people. A bunch of pilgrims searching for a place to worship God freely. That is exactly why God blessed this country.
We’ve turned our backs and rejected God and now this country is looking at judgement in the tragically near future. Israel will once again become the focal point of the entire world. And God will be glorified in His deliverance and victory over the members of the host whom rejected their first estate and were expelled from heaven. Primarily Satan, formerly Lucifer, no longer worthy to bear the name. He refused to serve man and act as the covering cherub. He detests humans and sees them as subordinates, slaves that should serve the higher order. In the beauty of irony, God condemned Lucifer, who by deceiving Eve and causing Adam to partake of her sin, took possession of Adam’s dominion. This world became the property of the master that Adam became servant of by sinning against God. Man became a servant of sin. A servant owns nothing but those things his master permits. Satan is a greedy master. The beautiful irony I earlier mentioned, is the fact that satan abhors humans and lost everything because he refused to serve them, but he serves them on this world and has no other choice but to rely on them in order to attempt his final battle. He could never see everywhere at once without the human technology that and willing human slaves to utilize that technology to destroy themselves. He could never control the vastness of the population without human slaves winning to subjugate other humans. He could never know their thoughts without the neural implants and mechanical, electrical devices. He has to pander to humans to accomplish his vain attempt at glory. He is worshipped by the most frightened, depraved, gutless, soulless, scum of humanity. Those are his subjects. He has no mighty army of devoted followers. He has greedy, lying, cowardly, mindless worms begging for every morsel and crumb they can get for themselves. Without bribery, he has nothing. Without empty promises, he perishes alone, hated by every creature that he’s deceived. The lower orders among the host follow his commands because they have no choice. No love, no respect, no glory, no throne. Only greedy disgusting sociopathic rats eating each other to save their own wretched flesh. That’s his kingdom. That’s what he threw everything away for. Refusing to serve man from heaven, he now serves man on earth, awaiting eternal damnation. That’s the beautiful irony.
Here are a few points in response:
1. The Bible doesn’t say that “they will become one spirit” in marriage. It says “one flesh.” Perhaps you have been lead to believe something that is not true.
2. You said that Jesus wouldn’t marry a city because he’s a person. Your logic breaks down as soon as Revelation refers to Him as a lamb. You’re forcing literal interpretation when it’s convenient for you and ignoring the symbolic when it’s inconvenient.
3. You said, “… never did Jesus once infer that, this city will be my bride.” Where did Jesus infer that the “church” would be? Jesus specifically referred to His disciples as friends/attendants of the groom… Mark 2:19- “And Jesus said to them, ‘While the groom is with them, the attendants of the groom cannot fast, can they? As long as they have the groom with them, they cannot fast.” You might respond and say that the disciples weren’t part of the “church” yet, but then how could they transition into being the bride? Where does the word “church” come from and why would it be a delineating term for people who are going to “marry” the Lord, as you would say?
4. FYI, you inadvertently made a case for the ‘post-trib’ view. You said that they came out of the “tribulation,” then the angels poured out the wrath. They can’t go through the “tribulation” then be part of a “pre-tribulation rapture” can they?
To be transparent, I don’t hold to any of the popular views on the ‘end times,’ although I am a Christian. If I said that I hold a ‘post-trib’ view, then that would imply that I believe the “tribulation” will be 7 years long. The Bible doesn’t explicitely say that anywhere. Also, I don’t find it necessary to use words that come with religious baggage, such as tribulation, dispensation, church, etc.
Ekklesia is incorrectly translated to “church,” but that’s a discussion for another thread.
I am one who strongly believes that those who believe the Bible need to study with an interlinear and re-evaluate what they have been taught by religious leaders.
@paul
If you don’t like assigning names to your beliefs, you might consider the fact that the people who teach what you believe assign names to each facet of their set of doctrines. “Daniel’s 70 weeks,” “pre-tribulational rapture” “Millenialism,” “Zionism,” etc. If you were to break away from the teachings, then you’d be able to break away from the labels.
“But since that last week hasn’t happened yet, we must be in a gap.”
-How can the 70 “weeks” be considered a coherent timeline if you arbitrarily place a gap into it? Doesn’t that seem a little convenient to your intepretation? You get to tell others that it’s a timeline, but then to make it work out you also get to assign a “gap” where you choose? That seems a little unreasonable to me. There is no explicit gap in the text. The reason you need a gap is because you attribute meaning to the text, rather than letting the text inform you.
“Since the 70 Weeks are for Israel, this gap is not for Israel, but for the Gentiles. Hence, why we call it the Church Age.”
-Where are you getting that context from? First, you are assuming that there is a gap, then you are saying that the gap is for non-Jews, then you are using all of that as a proof for Dispensationalism. You’re straying far from what is explicit in the text.
“Isaiah 26:19-21 also quite plainly shows a catching up prior to judgement upon the earth …”
-I don’t find any plainly stated referrence to being caught up in the three verses from Isaiah 26. Here is Isaiah 26:20-
“Come, my people, enter your rooms
And close your doors behind you;
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.”
-If this verse coincides with a wedding celebration that supposedly begins after a “rapture,” why would the people be told to hide in their rooms?
“Matthew’s gospel is a Jewish gospel, showing how Jesus fulfilled the Jewish promises.”
-Your belief system hinges on a lot of assumptions and attributions. Which of the “gospels” were written by non-Jewish people? I know that’s not your point, but you are creating contexts for interpretation that go well beyond what is explicitely stated in the text itself. You’re using those contexts as a justification for what you read into the text. This is called eisegesis.
“The New Jerusalem is where the raptured will live during the 7 Years, as Jesus told us in John 14 and Isaiah 26 …”
-They will live in seperate rooms and behind closed doors for 7 years? Refer to Isaiah 26:20.
“The people of a city are what make the city, not the structure.”
-Why does Revelation go into great detail explaining the design of the city and the materials it’s made of?
“Additionally, God the Father called Israel his wife in the OT, and my understanding is that, as described in Hosea, there was no divorce.”
-This is where I had been wanting to go with this discussion. Please refer to 2 Peter 3:13. When ‘pre-trib’ teachers say that the “church” is the bride, they are missing quite a bit of the Bible. The symbolism of the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven carries much more meaning than simply, “the church is the bride.” God desires righteousness, and there is more than one dimension to the symbolism of the wedding and the bride.
You seem very confused about the 70 Weeks. The Hebrew is literally “seventy sevens.” Everyone at the time understood it to mean years, adding up to 490. There’s plenty of documentation of this in Essene literature. There were 483 years from the proclamation to rebuild Jerusalem to Jesus entering Jerusalem on a donkey, which adds up perfectly to 69 sevens [seven sevens and sixty two sevens]. And then the Messiah was, indeed, cut off, and the temple was destroyed, along with the city, just as prophesied. And then, nothing. The final seven didn’t happen as predicted. The end did not happen. We’re still here. So, either God is a liar, or there’s a gap. God’s not a liar, so there is a gap. I didn’t assign a single thing. The gap happened. I am simply recognizing that it happened. Jesus recognized gaps between prophecies, too, when he read from Isaiah, and stopped mid-sentence, so there is Biblical justification for recognizing gaps.
As far as the gap being for the Gentiles, this was prophesied in Amos 9:13, and explained by James in Acts 15:13-18. It’s pretty explicit in the text, if you study the whole Bible. It’s not all spelled out in just one place. For instance, Jesus never said explicitly “I am God.” He strongly implied it. But adding up all his statements in light of one another and the surrounding context, it is clear that he is claiming to be God. Does that make him any less God?
As for Isaiah 26:18-20 (which I should have also included 21, since that refers to the judgement that is coming), if you compare it to 1 Corinthians 15:52-53, the parallels to the receiving of a new body are clear. Compare that to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, and you see that after we receive the body, we are caught up to heaven (this is where the term “rapture” comes from, from the Latin “rapturos” which comes from the word “harpazo” translated as “caught up”). Paul followed this up with 2 Thessalonians 2 because the people were apparently concerned that the man of lawlessness was already on the scene, but Paul told them not to worry because that wouldn’t come until the restrainer left. All of that context clearly points to us being removed prior to the 70th Week that Paul clearly mentioned by referencing the Man of Lawlessness.
Matthew’s gospel is considered the Jewish gospel because it has the most references to Jewish feasts, customs, scriptures, and prophecies. Yes, all the writers (save maybe for Luke, whose heritage I don’t know) were Jewish, but not all were written for Jewish audiences. John, for instance, was clearly for Gentiles because he translated Hebrew and Aramaic words into Greek for us, explaining them to us. Matthew, however, continuously referred to the Old Testament scriptures to show how they point to Jesus, which is most helpful for Jews. In fact, in the very first verse, Matthew calls to mind the Jewish idea of The Anointed one who was the promised seed of David and Abraham. Those don’t mean much to Gentiles, but mean everything to Jews. I am absolutely not inserting anything into the text. Instead, I am reading what the text actually says. All of the text.
It seems like you waver between being hyper-literal, with a very wooden interpretation of the scriptures, claiming that we will literally be locked in our rooms for 7 years, but then you go back to intense symbolic importance over the literal, that Jesus isn’t literally marrying a city because that’s ridiculous. Stick to your own rules, please. It’s very confusing. I interpret the Bible by using the Bible. If something is in a poetic section, I treat it as poetry. If something is in a narrative section, I treat it as narrative. For instance, when something is as thoroughly mapped out as the New Jerusalem, it tells me that it is a physical place, a real thing. Each of the dimensions and the materials do have meanings beyond the basic description, but I don’t know exactly what.
I am disinclined to answer any more questions because your tone has been very adversarial and accusatory, like you have something to prove. Believe what you want. I’ve studied the Bible plenty, and have changed my views based on those studies to more closely match not what I wanted, but what I read. If you want to throw out the pre-trib rapture and 7 year tribulation as described in 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thess. 4, 2 Thess. 2, and Daniel 9, and have your own interpretation, that’s fine. I think you’re wrong, but I’ve been wrong, too. I just don’t see how you can look at all of those passages and not come to that same conclusion. I don’t think you’re actually curious about my position at all, and instead only want to disprove mine. So with that, have a nice day, and God bless.
@paul
I was working on a longer response, but out of respect for your withdrawal I will shorten it to a couple of clarifications. –
“It seems like you waver between being hyper-literal, with a very wooden interpretation of the scriptures, claiming that we will literally be locked in our rooms for 7 years, but then you go back to intense symbolic importance over the literal, that Jesus isn’t literally marrying a city because that’s ridiculous.”
1. In this quotation above, you are confusing my summary of someone else’s response to me as my own argument. See item #2 in my response to Crazy Bear.
2. My questions were formulated as challenges to the reasoning of the ‘pre-trib’ set of beliefs. If you are confused by them, you might consider that they highlight inconsistency, among other issues.
I’m 84 and been going to church 50 yrs and i was a stout believer in the pre trib until i heard the explanation of the entire chapter 9 daniel by Joe Bandler. Have you heard of him, you would enjoy. I was hoping these other guys would answer the questions you asked but they didn’t. wrong on a lot of things.Have a good day.
I haven’t heard of him. Thank you for the recommendation! I’ll look him up when I have some time.
ps forgot to mention that there’s no gap in the prophecy you just have to know what to look for it. joe does that nicely.
@walt
I wasn’t able to find any information on Joe Bandler. Is he associated with any specific outreaches?
find it on fb
Sorry for the delay and late response, send a message while he’s still available he said he might stop commenting anymore https://www.facebook.com/joseph.bandler.1
you’ll be glad you did he uncoversd many lies and recently showed me something really eyeopening. have a good day.
What passages of scripture support the existence of any rapture?
More specifically:
Where specifically is the commonly held modern notion of instantaneously disappearing humans discussed in the scriptures?
@444gem
For clarification, do you believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
@eightynine
ישוע המשיח
@eightynine
I understand your skepticism; What I don’t really understand is the need to answer a simple question I’ve posited regarding relevant scriptural passages, with a qualifying/disqualifier question of your own.
Particularly given I have offered thousands of comments and an entire series on the forum which affirms Yeshua HaMessiach.
So Again: what specific scriptural passages offer support for the concept of a rapture at any point?
@444gem
I just wanted to know if we have commonality in honoring the Lord. I wouldn’t be very interested in discussing this with you if you didn’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
If you would argue that there will be no event where those who are saved will be “caught up,” then we won’t agree.
If your point of focus is actually on the idea of it being a secret disappearance, then yes, I agree. It won’t be a secret.
@eightynine
My question is still:
Which specific scriptural passages that support the notion of the rapture as preached in modernity? What do these passages say?
Its not necessary to have discussions only for agreement sake. That creates an echo chamber effect in which we limit ourselves to a tiny box and keep from learning and growing. So, if you wish to continue, can we examine the scriptures?
@444gem
“… can we examine the scriptures?”
No thank you. I think that time has passed for this thread.
@eightynine
“Time has passed for this thread”
Where was the thread clock? I was unaware it even existed!
You had many paragraphs to dedicate to writing about your opinions of “pre-trib,” and “post-trib,” rapture, yet never cited a single scriptural source.
You have defamed and discredited me as a mystic. (See: calling me a heretic) yet never dared to discuss with respect.
And, now you won’t even dare to provide a single passage of scripture to support your opinions; which you claim are in line with scripture of the Aryeh Yehudah and Yeshua HaMessiach. An example you will not even follow!! Did Yeshua speak only with those he agreed with? Nicodemus comes to mind…
It is written:
“A fool find no joy in understanding, but delights in airing his opinions.”
It is wise to take understanding from scripture, and not to delight in parroting the opinions of fools who call themselves father.
@444gem
“You have defamed and discredited me as a mystic.”
-The things you say frame you as one. Don’t put so much personal stock in what people say online. Build up your fortitude.
“Did Yeshua speak only with those he agreed with?”
-I don’t think agreement is the right context:
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matthew 10:34
“It is written:”
-“Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; …” Proverbs 17:28
Many paragraphs dedicated to false righteousness, yet none for discussing scripture when in fear of being presented wisdom which may release one from the cage of dogma.
Now the scriptural quotes you are bringing are… highly out of context, bordering on twisting.
The sword comes from the mouth:
It is written:
“From his mouth comes a finely edged sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron.”
This is about speaking The Truth; the sharpest of all weapons. Yet you fear and refuse to even discuss scriptures if someone does not yet accept Yeshua!!
@444gem
“… when in fear of being presented wisdom which may release one from the cage of dogma.”
-LOL! I hope you don’t have that attitude with the people in your life.
“Do not be wise in your own eyes; …” Proverbs 3:7
The more I learn, the more I am aware of how vanishingly little I know. Such is the magnificence of YHWH. The wisdom belongs to the scriptures, the breathe of YHWH, which unfortunately you have not but once read.
So many words, and so much time you have when the ego is touched, but none for scripture when asked.
So Again for the 5th time:
What specific scriptural passages offer support for the concept of a rapture?
444gem
Do you ever lead online bible studies. I would like to learn information that you have. I feel very lost spiritually. I know Jesus is The Messiah.
@truckdriver
Listening to the Word might help you. Sometimes listening can do what reading can’t.
There is an audio icon at the top of the page here and you can listen to the Bible for free without an account:
https://www.esv.org/Mark+1/
Mark is a great book to start with!
@truckdriver
I am currently working on setting up an online place for deeper scriptural study. I will keep you posted when it’s finished.
Keep your heart on The Truth. Yeshua Kavvanah and many blessings.
I am very excited for this. Should you need help of any sort, I don’t know what kind, but should you need it, ask lgageharleya for my email address.
I can sift through information and sort it well, that’s about all I can say for sure. I’d consider myself blessed to help out with such a project, should you find need for me on it.
Also btw @lgageharleya I sent you an email a couple of days ago, in case you haven’t checked since then. You can forward it to whomever you like
@444gem
I got it and responded, thank you, @channah
I won’t be responding further to you in this thread.
@444gem
Do you ever lead any bible studies online? I would like to learn more of your information.
This is incredibly saddening
It’s as legitimate as Bob Lazar’s background in physics.
This is beyond fake, this is ridiculous
as legit as the moon landing (us & india) what a joke lmao
Hang up that piñata and let’s get to it.